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Saved!Hey, guys, I want your opinion for classification purposes: Is RWBY anime?
Most people I've seen talk about it seem to believe that it is. I'm generally inclined to disagree based on my own perspective of the show, but I'm very willing to admit that perspective is flawed and worthy of re-evaluation. So I want to know what you think?
Also as a side note if the consensus is that it is anime I WILL edit this page to reflect that and put it in my lists.-
Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … That's tough. I think it technically is, because Monty Oum was gravitating toward that field after leaving Dead or Alive. He was part of the group that started pushing for 3D animation in anime. RWBY turned into more of an American anime production because Rooster Teeth owns it. Japan was leading more of the higher-end advancements in 3D anime, such as character expressions. -
Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … 3D anime is still controversial. Some of the Japanese 3D animators actually tried to push the 2D people out of the big name studios at one point. I think they reached some sort of medium, but there's still a lot of things that are not possible with 2D animation. Land of the Lustrous recently tried those things and it became huge in Japan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9MuI4gfyiA
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … is it anime if it's not japanese -
Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … I guess that's the big question, really. I almost feel as if Sega Hard Girls or Land of the Lustrous were made as a reaction to RWBY. However, Land of the Lustrous went through over six years in development.
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Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … Monty Oum is still as close as America has gotten to the anime buzz, though. He's the former CG dude from Team Ninja. He literally started a lot of the mess to get Japanese 3D animation popular in viral video form and in the U.S. Him and his f***ing Dead Fantasy.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … IMO anime is a specific manga style of 2D animation. So anything that's primarily in 3D can't be anime. I don't see why something American couldn't be anime, though. -
Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … Personally, 3D japanese made anime is definitely anime. Western made is not. I hear RWBY is popular in Japan though, if so it makes it harder to classify. -
Saved!Husky WingEditing … solution: remove "anime" genre altogether, and only allow japanese animated shows to be ranked in "Favorite Anime" lists
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … Iirc the english voicework doesn't suck which puts it squarely in the not anime camp. It sounds like any other western cartoon. (But this reasoning is kind of English centric when i think about it. Gotta try to figure that one out)
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … what
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … The final factor to consider is whether Monty Oum is japanese and whether a japanese american production can be considered anime.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Did you just say a good dub makes something not anime, what
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … code geass is meant to be watched in english debate me
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … No debate to be had from me, I'm a dubs kinda guy
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … people go by art direction to decide if something is anime, I would say voicework is equally relevant
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … okay I very much disagree there but also you were referring to the actual quality of the voicework. why would the quality of the voiceover have anything to do with its genre?
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … "code geass is meant to be watched in english debate me" then I guess code geass is meant to be awful
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … how is that related to what I said. If I'm disagreeing with you saying that the quality of the voicework defines its genre, then why would I agree that the quality of its voicework defines its genre?
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Karen Strassman is in the Code Geass dub, your point is invalid Rockshard
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … I was responding to your code geass comment. which had nothing to do with the conversation anyway. you went off on a subs vs dubs tangent but I nonetheless was compelled to reply. :p In fact I stopped watching at ep 3 or 4 when I could only get the dubbed version of the episode to work on that site you suggested me back then. And that incident may have been a major contributing factor to my current no-dubs-no-way-no-how policy for watching anime.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … there's only one tangent here and you're still writing it
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … How does a dub have nothing to do with the topic of dubs--which YOU started GOD you're so DUMB
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … "there's only one tangent here and you're still writing it" yeah, and you started it "how is that related to what I said." how does a dub have nothing to do with the topic of dubs GOD you're so DUMB
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … https://i.imgur.com/eDZDOlD.png yeah i started it nice
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … some people are impossible to debate with
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Here is Rockshard going off on a tangent and people responding with confusal and rebuttals https://i.imgur.com/0KiAy5g.png
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Here is Rockshard insisting that didn't happen and that the rebuttals were in agreement https://i.imgur.com/vsicqY9.png
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … Cool Guy "Did you just say a good dub makes something not anime, what" some things are dead giveaways if something is anime or not. If it uses for example voice actors from other anime dubs, or sounds similar to those dubs, then that is one such clue. IMO of course.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Anime voice actors act in all kinds of things, I've heard Karen Strassman in a Disney princesses cartoon, and she's Cortana in Halo now, and Mileena, Helena Douglas, all kinds of people. Same goes for Johnny Yong Bosch. The choice in voice actors doesn't determine its genre
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … that's like saying horror is defined by whether or not it's a director or actor that usually works in horror
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … there are different anime genres. what we're discussing isn't genre so much, but a format.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Well okay, I used bad terminology, but it doesn't determine that either
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … If a dude in an ice cream van starts selling cake alongside his ice cream that cake isn't ice cream because it was made by an ice cream man
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … nnts nnts nnts nnts
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … he's only talking terminology to deflect cuz he's been caught making dumb accusations
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … And now I'm rapping nnts nnts nnts
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … if Hideo Kojima gets a camera and points it at a forest is he making a video game
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … That's basically MGS3
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … Is it true that when making a cartoon they do the voices first and the animation later? Because if so then that's an airtight explanation for why western cartoons and anime will sound different and why having the same voice actor for both doesn't change anything. Though it probably doesn't help that anime characters don't emote nearly as much as their western counterparts. (talking head syndrome)
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Well yeah that is likely why anime dubs sound awkward sometimes, dubbing over lipflaps is a lot harder to make sound natural than just talking into a mic, but that still doesn't determine whether or not it's anime
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Oh wait you were asking a question, my bad, misread it. Yeah that is true 99% of the time
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … telling me this lad isn't emoting smh https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/819002019246611829/E51702D3CAE77FC7EBB43597A67FE413D07050F0/
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … WHY WOULD YOU AGREE TO DUB THIS
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … "but that still doesn't determine whether or not it's anime" says who? I'd say it's a key deciding factor, along with the obvious stuff like art style.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Imagine putting that on your resume
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … We've already addressed that but okay
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … He's arbitrarily set his own bespoke deciding factor on what anime is and it doesn't matter if the whole world sings in disagreement
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … some of the best anime voicework ever done tbh https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/819002019246634062/5F117C95A3BA76D9CEDB63FE177F018A43BF975E/
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … I've already cried ten times
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … hypest anime https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/819002019246639924/68791FEC4866859469927923B8DF5985A97AD86B/
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … probably the best anime waifu https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/819002019246641882/6A3CDC5F53184E75F190702193D48DAF11B79005/
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Anime was a mistake
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … What game is the last one based on though?
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … By last one I mean the one I liked
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … one more https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/819002019246648893/FB792C37475590F3B941BC4C91E2113DC7BA4A29/
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Detroit: Become Human AND THE MUSIC IS FROM CLOUD ATLAS
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … O gotcha
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … GHOST STORIES <3
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Ghost Stories is proof that dubs are superior
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … rockshard are you okay i love you
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Okay I went to bed and this just went all weird what the hell. -
Saved!MrZAPEditing … Also goddammit Husky what the hell was that first link (rhetorical question; please don't tell me)?
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Have we actually come to some sort of consensus on my original question?
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … well I honestly don't know what show it is so I really couldn't tell you anyway
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … I'm treating the whole voice-over conversation as irrelevant.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … yeah even rockshard said it had nothing to do with the conversation
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … D E S U
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … You're all animals.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … ONIICHAN NO KOTO DAISUKIIII DA NYOOOOOOOOO
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … https://www.strawpoll.me/17854307 ?
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … But then what about the favourite anime characters list?
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … shit I forgot to add "anime is animation with bad english voice acting"
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Scooby Doo is my favourite anime
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … I fundamentally disagree with the third option because I don't separate Western cartoons into 2d and 3d and that would require doing that. I suppose anime shouldn't be either then.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Scrappy Doo Show or 13 Ghosts?
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Also if you did the third option it'd stump out the people who think RWBY is an anime, since that wouldn't fall under Japanese + animation
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … I don't know what 13 Ghosts is and this concerns me
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … "He's arbitrarily set his own bespoke deciding factor on what anime is" umm what? You could say that of any criteria used to decide if something is anime or not. There is no reason to single me out for doing it. "and it doesn't matter if the whole world sings in disagreement" are you implying we should simply hold a popular vote? I mean sure, I guess that could help decide since the matter of whether RWBY is anime or not isn't strictly scienfitic, but cultural. And therefore popular opinion does come into play.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … lOOK personally I think if we broaden these terms too much then niche lists will no longer be niche and we'll start seeing anime lists polluted with cartoons. You ask me, anime lists are for japanese animation. It's the japanese word *for* "animation." I don't think two shows are necessarily categorized differently just because one has a CalArts style and the other's japanese-inspired.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Rockshard, the definition of japanese animation as anime isn't arbitrary, it's based on the fact that it's WHAT JAPANESE PEOPLE CALL ANIMATION. *YOU* have set not just an arbitrary, but a nonsensical factor to decide how to separate a format, that being the quality of its... english release?!
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … A vote doesn't decide if RWBY is anime. What it does indicate to is what the userbase of this site wants for THIS SITE.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Tbh lists polluted with things that don't belong is kind of a bridge we've already crossed at this point, I don't remember which lists specifically but I remember frothing with rage while scrolling down list rankings at shit that clearly did not belong
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Remember in 2005 when this wasn't an issue?
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … 2019: Favslist brought to its knees by Japan
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Husky just drop the voice-over thing since you're the only one directly bringing it up now. Don't drag the thread back into the depths it got out of.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … I mean we also have the issue of live-action actors and voice-actors cross polluting their lists.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … And before it went down I mentioned that the trends on the front page kept showing game characters in the film category.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … And I'm sure there are things I'm not thinking about as well.
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … Deleted by himself
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … You act like I'm reviving the topic. Just because Rockshard didn't explicitly repeat "this being my voiceover thing we're talking about" doesn't mean he's moved on from it, the two of us are talking about the arbitrary definition of anime he provided--that being the quality of the english release. Me being the only one fully typing that out doesn't mean I'm the only one talking about it.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … This is getting messy so I'm gonna go back to having a nonstop existential crisis in the corner of my room
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … im banning rockshard right now
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Well okay. But he also seems to be willing to move on to a more general point about the definition which is valid.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Goddammit Husky this is why Crash needs to be the admin instead. :P
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Personally I pledge my full support to Chiaki Suzuki
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … if we're on "every definition of anime is arbitrary" im not even debating with any "using the japanese word for animation to label japanese animation is arbitrary" nutjob extremist terrorists nope
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Guys Persona is in Smash
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Except every definition of anime *is* arbitrary. It's an entirely Western-made concept for a Japanese art medium that has only been in vogue for a generation and only had real influence in Western art for like 15 years. We're still figuring it out.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … we should probably start labelling animation as either 2D or 3D
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … You'll ruin the animated film lists.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … The definition of anime would be arbitrary if we just took the word and then applied definitions to it, but what we really did was check a look at japanese animation and use their own word for it. We applied a word to a definition.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Zap you misunderstand, general animation lists would allow for both 2D and 3D in this scenario. No current lists would be affected by it.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Let's just cross this bridge when we come to it
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Except they call our stuff anime too so it's not like they use that word exclusively for that art style.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Understand I think we should distinguish the two, but I'm willing to acknowledge we made that definition ourselves.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … But we're talking about the western concept as you said, and we did apply that label to a definition of japanese animation. I'm also saying this *isn't* a matter of artstyle.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Well then Husky maybe I don't understand what you're suggesting?
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … If it doesn't have to do with art style then isn't the 2d/3d thing irrelevant?
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Personally I think we should just be arguing about whether it has to be culturally Japanese or not. The rest seems like extra baggage to me.
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … exactly, it's OUR word. At least, it's their word attached to our definition. We use it denote stuff they made. But at some point other people want to copy the stuff they make causing confusion for everybody. :-p In general though, only their stuff is anime still. There hasn't been many convincing attempts to replicate it and the giveaways are usually glaringly obvious. (though that doesn't make them bad shows, whether the show is good or not is entirely unrelated. A lot of anime is trash. The Boondocks and Castlevania are not anime but nonetheless excellent. and so on.) So it's not likely that RWBY qualifies either.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Okay okay here--we have two new listings under "genres"--Animation (2D) and Animation (3D). Under current lists, this has no effect, as "Favorite Animated Movies" would be for both 2D and 3D movies. The generic "Animation" label would be removed. The "Anime" label may or may not be removed, depending on what we think is best. If we did define "Anime" as "Japanese" + "Animation (either 2D or 3D)" then the anime list would be pretty much unchanged and we'd also remove the "Anime" tag. If we chose to keep the "Anime" genre tag, and applied it to cartoons from various regions, most likely based on their artistic or cultural inspirations, then the only change to the Favorite Anime lists would be some variety of the page origins.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … What 2D/3D opens up is more lists. Favorite 2D Animated Movies, Favorite 3D Animated Movies. And shows. It's a more specific tag that isn't inconvenient to use, as it's easily recognizable. Some media would also be tagged with both (The Little Prince, for example).
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Sounds good to me for the purpose of more list possibilities, but personally I'd prefer to keep the anime tag as well
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Wait do we tag anime as a genre and not a medium?
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … That's dumb. It should be a medium.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Otherwise we'd have things like the favourite anime characters list to worry about, plus it's just nice to have that kind of categorisation
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Well right now Zap we only have the category and the genre. The category is TV Show/Web Series, the genre is Anime. There isn't really anywhere other than genre we can put it, there isn't a medium space
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Colgate if we didn't have the "anime" tag, Favorite Anime Character lists would be unchanged, as the site definition for "anime" would be japanese animation. So the list would actually be totally unaffected. If we define "anime" as some non-japanese media as well, then it will see some minor change in that it'll grow a bit more diverse.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Okay I think with that description everything you just said sounds somewhat reasonable. We'd keep a generic "Favorite Animated Shows" list too.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Is anime really its own medium? When I think "medium" I think "Movie," "TV show," "Game." I don't think of "this type of game," or "this type of show."
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Oh shit yeah true, I remembered how you tag someone as an anime character wrong
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … I think in 3 or 4 years we'd need to revisit the "Is stuff made outside of Japan anime?" question because it's only going to get worse, but it's good for now.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Just make it the definition you gave above.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I feel like I've given a few, but I guess I've "vocalized" (lmao we're typing) that personally I think it's japanese animation. Ultimately the final decision would be made when we've got a larger userbase and there's more voices, so yeah like you're saying I think, any choice made now could end up being temporary.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Yeah the problem is the question of whether or not something from outside of Japan is anime, and whether or not something 3D from Japan is anime, and I don't think that's something we can agree on. My own personal opinion is to keep the anime tag so that it can be applied to anything that CAN be considered anime, then people can come to their own conclusions as to whether or not to consider that show an anime when compiling their own personal list... but I haven't exactly thought that opinion through so I could change my mind in like an hour
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … For my own personal lists I lump anime, manga, and perhaps even light novels together in the larger classification since there's so much cross-pollination. I still have separate manga and anime lists though as well.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I think we'd count 3D animation from Japan as anime, right? But I only think of anime as "japanese animation."
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … But I definitely don't categorize manga and western comics together or anime and western cartoons.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … I don't personally, to me anime is animated manga, manga is 2D drawings
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Now... CAN WE RANK GARFIELD IN FAVORITE COMIC BOOK SERIES'?
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … I don't really like the idea of giving something a genre based just on where it comes from, it's the same reason I hate categorisations like 'J-pop' and 'J-core', like if it has its own sound then fine, but just being from a certain country doesn't give it a special genre
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … I think more important is the fact we have a 'favourite food' and a 'favourite dishes' lists, like wtf
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … The past few days I've been overhauling TV show ratings as you've seen in preparation to finally make decent lists for them, as right now I only have a list for anime shows and nothing else. The final list will include anime but I'm also going to keep the old anime list and keep live-action and western cartoon lists, so three major lists.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … I consider those three lists to represent different storytelling mediums.
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … part of the reason I like subs because it feels like you're simply viewing a manga with voiceovers.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … If that was a serious question though I say YES cause it's comic panels innit, it's comics
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … But being from a certain area does give it an appeal to certain people, and it's worth giving it a distinct label for that. For many it might not be a matter of genre and more a matter of "ah, yes, my favorite mediaplace."
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … do you think we should have a unified comics list, a manga list, a western comic books list, and a comics strip list
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … @Husky Wing No we need a separate list for newspaper comic strips like I brought up the other day.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Peanuts and Fables don't ever belong in the same list.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … so that was you that inceptioned me
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … It still seems arbitrary to give it a GENRE based on that though. Like fair enough just referring to stuff casually as J-pop because it's from Japan and it's pop, but the fact that it's widely considered its own genre and categorised separately from standard 'pop' doesn't make sense to me
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … The favorite dishes list has always been weird. Like I get the concept and it's sound I think but since a dish can be almost anything people are going to put in all their personal things and no one will have much overlap. Either that or it will be too much trouble for most people to add new things so there'll be too much overlap. Either way it'll be too much or too little and the rankings will be weird.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Yes Husky those lists sound perfect.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … And a webcomic list.
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … We should probably try to make it clear whenever we're labelling something a genre simply to enable ranking functionality. Does the site need additional fields for when something isn't a genre but isn't a medium either?
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … okay so we're gonna revamp that list to be about plates, bowls, glasses, mugs, spoons, those sorts of dishes
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … I don't really know enough about comics to comment
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Though I probably still wouldn't put newspaper comics in the master list personally.
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Saved!HelendlocEditing … Nice my favourite is porcelain
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … I'm going to make a separate post about mediums and lists so I can use paragraphs and stuff. Hold on a couple minutes.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … On book pages it's got "type" *and "genre," and "webcomic" is a "genre." Comic Books and Manga are "types."
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Case Closed/Detective Conan is so long. 96 volumes and 937 episodes, and both the manga and anime are still ongoing. Wikipedia doesn't mention them ever having changed voice actors in either japanese or english.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … well the wikipedia page for Jimmy/Conan only lists one english voice actor for each role, but the individual actor pages CLEARLY SAYS THEY STOPPED PLAYING THE PARTS IN 2009, AND NEW EPISODES ARE STILL COMING OUT TODAY. Who's Conan, who's Jimmy, HUH?!
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … more than one english adaptation... Wikipedia, WHICH VOICE ACTORS AREN'T YOU TELLING ME ABOUT
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I've never even WATCHED DETECTIVE CONAN why do I even CAAAAAAARRRRE
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … OH! I think it's cuz most of the episodes haven't aired in english :) -- but what about the voices from the SECOND ENGLISH DUB
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I'm going now
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Maybe use imdb instead? Sometimes they're better especially for smaller parts.
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Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … Yeah, Detective Conan is taking forever to finish. The manga-ka probably wants more money from the franchise. Y'know, even though there already 22 frickin' films that came out...
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Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … I liked parts of it, but it just never ended. And I don't know how his elementary classmates can stand him. They get sucked into such extremely violent murder scenes, just because he's frickin' Conan the genius. Freaking jerk.
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … DJ, Have you seen Erased?
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Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … Deleted by himself
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Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … Not really. Oh hang on, the anime? Sorry, I mixed it up with the live action movie. I want to watch it. Sounds like something right up my alley. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8tTxuO1oIY
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Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … Deleted by himself
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Saved!DJ_JJSliderEditing … F***ing happy-go-lucky Conan. Honestly, that kid looks way too cute to be examining murder scenes. And I know it's because someone turned him into a midget, but COME ON. That still sounds stupid, man.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … imdb only had the japanese cast, I checked :(
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Deleted!
