• 8 years ago
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    "This is the attack everybody has been dreading for at least a couple of years. This is really important because it is the essence of terrorism, it is not only about people being killed it is about creating a political effect. What worries me the most is that we will see in France and other European countries a polarisation, with different extremists egging each other on. People on the far right trying to take advantage. It's about dividing societies. This was a big attack but even relatively small attacks are dangerous because of the political situation, because of the chain reaction they can cause."
    Peter Neumann, Professor of Security Studies, King's College London
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    • Nodley
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      Nodley
      Editing … That's right. It's not muslims that did this, it was extremists. I'd like to think most people are intelligent enough to see that. Even myself with my anti-immigration policy understands full well, even if it doesn't come across as so all the time.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … "It's not muslims that did this, it was extremists." It was muslim extremists.
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    • Nodley
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      Nodley
      Editing … ""It's not muslims that did this, it was extremists." It was muslim extremists." So what? There are extremists in every religion. 99.99% of Muslims hold no bad feelings towards me. There are more Christians that dislike me than Muslims.
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    • Ed Kick
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      Ed Kick
      Editing … Deleted by himself
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … all extremists are bad, but it's the muslim extremists that carry out violent attacks on a regular basis. "There are extremists in every religion" Then you would be insane to try and isolate their extremism from their religion.
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    • Nodley
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      Nodley
      Editing … "all extremists are bad, but it's the muslim extremists that carry out violent attacks on a regular basis." Yeah, this decade. It's not always been like that though has it.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … Deleted by himself
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    • Nodley
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      Nodley
      Editing … I know. But because the war in Syria/Afghanistan etc etc was all so far away nobody really cared. Nobody wanted to spend their taxes on missiles to bomb them, and nobody wanted their sons/husband/brothers killed in a far away country for something that didn't matter to them. This terrorist attack might have been designed to split societies but I see it uniting them.
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    • Nodley
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      Nodley
      Editing … Where did your comment go Rukk?
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … eh, I deleted it before I found out you replied. Guess I wasn't fast enough. :p Sorry about that.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … What I'm thinking is, 1) if a terrorist attack was religiously motivated, then that fact should not be ignored. 2) The same applies to any decade, not just this one. However.. 3) Being that we live in this decade, then this decade is of immediate concern to us, and being that muslims literally killed people last night, then muslims are currently the issue at hand. But this last one is common sense really.
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    • Nodley
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      Nodley
      Editing … "Being that we live in this decade, then this decade is of immediate concern to us, and being that muslims literally killed people last night, then muslims are currently the issue at hand. But this last one is common sense really." I think you got the word 'muslim' confused with the word 'terrorist' or 'extremist'.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … oh, drop the act. These men shouted Allahu Akbar while killing people.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … I don't think people just decide to become terrorists in a vacuum.
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    • Nodley
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      Nodley
      Editing … "oh, drop the act. These men shouted Allahu Akbar while killing people." Of all the muslims I met in my life, none of them ever shot me whilst shouting Allahu Akbar.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … Also I find it kind of funny there's this college professor out there who's like "innocent people wounded and killed, but the worst thing that can happen from this is people saying racist things on twitter" Way to be a stereotype am I right.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … Also, "polarisation" and "different extremists egging each other on". As if it's a two sided thing. Do the muslim extremists responsible for these attacks have a polar equivalent in Europe? No, they don't. It's just them killing everyone else.
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    • free fall
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      free fall
      Editing … The problem is that over 100 people are dead and there are people who see it as an opportunity to complain about their feelings being hurt.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … #notallmuslims
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    • Bob GutSmasha
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      Bob GutSmasha
      Editing … I don't know if religion is the root cause of it. When the IRA bombed London people didn't run around screaming #notallLeprechauns; violence was political not cultural. Indonesia has more Muslims than any Middle Eastern country by a large margin, yet the majority of terrorist activity has its source in the Middle East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country#Countries
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    • Bob GutSmasha
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      Bob GutSmasha
      Editing … As for Muslims having a polar equivalent in Europe. They do, but the groups in question already had their period of violence. Christians were not all lovey Jesus; after the protestant reformations they went nuts. Dan Carlin has a podcast episode about Munster and some Anabaptist loons if you are interested http://podbay.fm/show/173001861/e/1366626424?autostart=1 They take over the city, murder people, try to spread word that the world is ending and try to recruit from all over Europe. Christianity is placid now probably because of centralization, wealth, and regional stability.
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    • free fall
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      free fall
      Editing … Don't get me wrong I don't blame Islam for what happened. I'm just saying the political conversation should be saved until the families have had time to mourn.
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    • Bob GutSmasha
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      Bob GutSmasha
      Editing … I can understand the sentiment behind that, but the purpose of terrorism is to divide people and incite hate. If people respond to terror attacks by uniting and protecting one another, it denies the terrorists victory. So it's actually really important to have those discussions now, even though it may seem tasteless.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … There can be different reasons for terrorism, but in this case it was religiously motivated. "Christianity is placid now probably because of centralization, wealth, and regional stability." So Christians were bribed into being docile? Christianity is a sham religion both because of that and because of the terrorism christian people have committed in the past such as what you just described. However, we live in modern times and Muslim extremism is currently of immediate concern. Christians are still dicks, but for what it's worth they're not trying to kill me right NOW, whereas there are entire groups of Muslims who are committed to exactly that and it is happening right now.
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    • rockshard PhD
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      rockshard PhD
      Editing … Also, so what if 200 years down the line all Muslims will become peaceful. What makes them so entitled to that? "Just deal with our terrorists a little longer please so we can pass our irrational beliefs on to future generations." We have Christianity now, but that's mostly an accident of history. Christians did deplorable things. Christianity shouldn't be here today. Neither is islam entitled to being around in the future. "Not all of us commit suicide bombings" oh wow that's great! You want a medal?
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    • Bob GutSmasha
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      Bob GutSmasha
      Editing … That's the point, Christians were violent but are not now, despite the religion being the same, so what changed? Europe was different 200 years ago, as in the standard of living and social structure. The Middle East is a mix of poor and ultra-rich states, state of the art technology in areas, and stone age in others; on top of that wide inequality it's divided by artificial, Western drawn, borders and Western interference. It's not as simple as "religion is the problem," groups like ISIS are politically motivated, but use religion as a recruitment vehicle.
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    • Not Important
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      Not Important
      Editing … I have to grab the "It's not muslims, it's extremists". This is plain wrong. It was a muslim extremist. Now I'm not saying that even 0.01% of muslims actually think that it's okay to do these things, but ignoring the fact that it's so strongly motivated by, not only geo-political, but also religious problems. Radicalization of Islam is a real, and a really important problem in the world at the moment. Most muslims want sharia law, this is a fact, and it's not a good thing. When around 20% of muslims think that suicide bombings on civilians in order to protect Islam from it's enemies can be justified often or sometimes, you have to realize that something is really, really wrong. Of course that's not saying that your average muslims is a terrorist or even sympathetic to them, but it's still an alarming amount of people. My source, because talking shit without backing it up is dumb: http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/
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    • Bob GutSmasha
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      Bob GutSmasha
      Editing … That article just shows that Muslims living in the Middle East (where armed conflict is a real threat) are 'concerned' about extremism; which of course they would be, the whole area is active. Look at where the highest support for bombing is: Gaza and Westbank, that's a Palestinian and Israeli conflict zone... Same with Lebanon, it borders Syria and the civil war was spilling over into their borders; these are countries at war.
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    • Not Important
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      Not Important
      Editing … Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that radicalization of muslims is a real problem. I'm not talking about who created the problem or what other influences the problems. I'm just saying that it's a problem, and a problem that won't go away with calling Islam the "religion of peace" or saying that these fundamentalists are not muslim.
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    • Bob GutSmasha
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      Bob GutSmasha
      Editing … I don't think anyone in this thread is calling Islam a religion of peace, I don't follow the wider debate so maybe that's the narrative out there right now, but these terrorists are a product of their region, not so much their religion. Religion in general leaves people vulnerable to radicalization (in my opinion anyway); but even if you took away Islam, ISIS and similar groups would just use patriotism or some other ideology as their recruitment tool.
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