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Saved!
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … That is a very bad, ill informed and misleading video. I could destroy this video pretty easily with sources and all but I really don't feel like doing that tbh and I've got nothing to prove besides it would take weeks to gather everything. Western price is up there with Eric Berg in bad diet info. I really wish people would stop using him as a source and falling for these kinds of entertainment style youtube influencer nutrition videos. -
Saved!NodleyEditing … But he's correct on lots of things, vitamins, choline, anti nutriets, nutrent absorbtion etc. Eating some meat only improves on a vegan diet. -
Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … Oh interesting, this is the same yt channel that made the video about vegetable oils. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rQmqVVmMB3k -
Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … What's with all the yt channels going after veganism lately? xD nobody's forcing you to convert
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Yeah, I don't see many recommending a balanced diet. The vast majority are all eat vegan, or eat carnivore, or fast, or atkins diet.... there's no wonder people don't know what is best.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Vegans wish they could force people to convert, but they're too weak and malnourished to even put in an earnest effort -
Saved!KlemoibEditing … If I ever hear the words "anti nutrients" again I think my head will implode. (they exist but their significance is extremely overblown within some health communities) It's like YouTube from 7 years ago is being regurgitated over and over again. YouTube is a cesspool when it comes to nutrition. Nobody actually takes the time to know what actual researchers are writing or look at the entire body of literature instead of one study that seems to support their standpoint. I really don't care anymore. I'm glad I don't come to that side of YouTube anymore.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … What I do care about is that Veganism has kind of been hijacked. It used to be about animal welfare but now people are using the term to refer to people who want to cut down on meat carbon or something or who want to only eat mango because they think it will make them skinny. People treat is as if it is a diet but it has always been an ethical movement and not a diet.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … But anti nutrients are important to people who need to know about diet and nutrition. What good is spinach for iron if your body only absorbs 2% of the iron? As a diet veganism falls flat but I get the animal welfare thing, that's a fair cause.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Your body up regulates or down regulates your iron absorption depending on how much iron your body needs. Non-heme iron (plant iron) has an absorption rate of 2% to 20%. Heme iron from animals has an absorption rate of 15% to 35%. But the average person still has more non-heme iron in their bodies because non-heme iron is the most common form of iron in food (unless you do the carnivore diet or something). Iron is not something you want too much of. That is why your body tries to regulate it. Too little iron is not good but too much iron is also not good.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … You can dramatically increase non-heme iron (and other minerals) uptake up to 6 times by adding or drinking vitamin c rich foods or garlic and onions with your meal meal. Or you can just eat a little bit more and get enough that way. Heme iron in animal foods is, while easily absorbed, not a great type of iron. Iron is something you want to be cautious of. Heme iron from animals also increases risk of cancer and heart disease and diabetes while non-heme iron does not (probably because heme is a pro-oxidant) . Heme iron will fill your iron requirements of course but it also comes with negative effects.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … “Anti-nutrients” like Phytates and Lectins do not only decrease absorption, they actually have positive effects aswell. They decrease your risk of cancer. Some forms can even distinguish cancer cells from healthy ones and kill them or revert them back to being healthy. In low doses these anti nutrients are actually very good for us. They are also in tea, so tea is great but don't drink it with a meal if you want to increase your iron absorption. Too much phytates and lectins etc., will make you vomit but you only get too much of you try to eat raw beans, but if you cook them properly or get them cooked from the store from a tin or jar, almost all of the anti nutrients will be gone from the beans.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … "Or you can just eat a little bit more and get enough that way." Nope, the more you eat the less you absorb. Another thing pointed out in the video is when vegans tell you there is more vitamin A in carrots than eggs. But they will never tell you that it's beta keratin and your body has to convert it so you only get a percentage. And this is the same with all these extremist diets. They all point out nothing but selected information that looks good, but it's never the whole truth. The only negatives they point towards is that of a rival diet like they trying to win rather than get to the absolute truth. It creates youtube clicks and so money, I get it, people are extremely tribal with virtually everything these days. It reminds me of a toxic relationship my friends were in, they argued none stop about nothing, it was all about point scoring against each other. Vegans have the whole animal welfare going on so I get it, that's a fair reason to not want to eat animal produce if it means something to you. I don't quite understand some of the motivation behind other diets though, besides making money that is. Fasting makes you thin, well no shit, not eating will do that, but why not just eat a balanced diet with a calories deficit? You can't possibly fit everything your body needs into 1 meal, unless it's 5 courses with fish and nuts and well, a bit of everything.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … What I do need to learn more about is nothing to do with vegetables or meat or fish or the plain obvious like sweets and kebab. I need to learn more about refined carbs and bread, pasta and all that kind of stuff. The stuff our ancestors didn't pick or kill. The natural stuff all seems ok in moderation to me, it's the produced stuff I think I want to cut more.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … For example sweet potato every day worries me far less than the bread I have my eggs in even though carbs are carbs right.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … There is literally so much beta carotene in carrots and sweet potatoes and such that the conversion does not matter. It's an insane amount that is in there. The orange you see is the actual substance. The fact that people can turn orange from eating too many carrots proves you actually absorb it. You can literally see it. Vegans do not have increased risk of vitamin A deficiency. It’s a non-issue. One small carrot converts to at least 200% of your daily needs of vitamin A. The argument against beta carotene “cuts no wood” as we would say here in Dutch land. "the more you eat the less you absorb" true, but eating half a portion extra is not going to make you absorb nothing suddenly. Your body is not retarded. Really if there was a problem with the way I eat I would have found out by now. I've been vegetarian since I was 8 years old and vegan for about 7 years or so now. I'm healthy and not deficient. Nothing wrong nutrition wise with not eating animals if you eat beans and stuff instead.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Webmd says a half cup of carrots can give you up to 73% of your daily vitamin A. I'm unsure if they already converted the beta keratin to get that figure or not. But I have no issue in eating animal produce so I can get my vitamin A from 2 eggs instead whilst also getting a whole list of other vitamins that come with eggs, plus protein and the fats that help the body absorb the vitamins. My body doesn't have to convert it either. I don't eat eggs every day, I have 8 a week, so in moderation my chances of a heart attack due to fat from eggs is non existent. The rest I get from carrots and sweet potato I guess. I think the optimum human diet removing all ethics and money making etc etc is a balanced diet of everything natural.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … See, it's like this. You can get vitamin c from broccoli, but too much brocoli can mess with your thyroid. So eat brocolli and oranges both in moderation. Have it all.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Yes, that is vitamin A after conversion. It has much more beta carotene. And that's raw carrots. You get more if you cook them and or add a little fat because it's a fat soluble vitamin. But if you don't like carrots there are many other plant sources. 2 eggs is a lot. Why always the eggs though? I know they are tasty but if there is one animal food that sucks nutritionally its eggs. They actually don't have a lot of vitamins compared to plant foods, 6 grams of protein per egg is not that much and two eggs as you suggested have about 360 mg of cholesterol. The current recommendation is to get no more than 300 mg of dietary cholesterol or 200mg if you are at risk for heart disease. But the ideal amount of dietary cholesterol is 0mg. You make all the cholesterol you need and added dietary cholesterol is not a good thing. Eggs do increase mortality. Even one a day. The evidence is overwhelmingly there but if you are already eating a lot of cholesterol from meat like most people you might not notice a lot from the extra egg cholesterol because you've already hit the threshold so your relative risk does not go up much because you are already at max. I had to find out the hard way that eggs suck by eating two or 3 a day for a while. Completely killed me. (but so tasty) But you can still eat them if you want. I think you can get away with one a day.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … have I mentioned how tasty leftovers out of the air fryer are? It's just amazing. Much better than oven or microwave.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I eat an egg sandwich for breakfast because it's quick and easy, 2 minutes in the microwave and done. Every minute in bed counts when I'm on early starts. Air fryer is king, I'm already planning to buy a bigger better one with multiple drawers and settings.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … I wish philips would make a sliding drawer airfryer with multiple drawers. That would be the ultimate airfryer... Or I guess I could just get two instead.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Can you show us the eggvidence Klem
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … are carbs actually great for me if I'm underweight
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Good carbs are great for you fat or thin. I always bang on about macros and about 50% of your diet should be carbs split into starchy and veggie. I say macros because how much you should eat depends on your lifestyle, if you are small and sit at a desk all day 2k calories might be too many, if you are large and work a physical job then gym too you may need 4k calories.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Of course unburned carbs turn to sugar, so you should eat just enough to power your body. Too many is bad, just like everything. My brother says 40% works for him, but I think that means he's overdoing the fats. But GOOD carbs are definitely not the enemy.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … I could show you "eggvedence but I doubt even if I showed you or any egglover eggvidence that it would stop them from eating eggs because it did not stop me from eating them until I discovered for myself that they are no good to eat. The industry funded research being done on eggs muddies the waters a whole lot resulting in one paper claiming the complete opposite result from the other paper and Eric Berg type of people abusing that to justify their own preferences. So you need be very critical in reading these papers and maybe have someone help you understand them because it’s not easy. You can find papers that tell you eggs do not raise cholesterol but if you look at the bigger picture you see it definitely does increase, but people eat so much cholesterol anyways that your relative risk for heart disease might not even go up that much or at all and you can abuse that fact to design a study that favours the industry’s wishes. You need to research it yourself to get a better picture of it and also read the papers that do not agree with your standpoint and look at how a study was designed.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … There are more risks to eggs than just cholesterol like cancer which I was particularly alarmed by when I read that because I could actually personally witness the effects of the eggs growing and hurting my benign breast fibroids. They stopped growing when I stopped the eggs and the started growing again when I started the eggs and stopped again when I stopped the eggs yet again. I also felt a slight chest pain sometimes when I was at 3 eggs a day and I had bad digestion but that went away very quickly after I stopped eating eggs and went vegan. The eggs were the only things I changed during my little self-experiment. The rest stayed the same. That’s why I’m pretty sure it was the eggs but of course this is just a story but my story is backed up by the research and I had to eat a whole large piece of humble pie to accept that I was wrong about eggs being okay. I would have loved to believe eggs were healthy, I’d still be eating them now because they are so tasty and handy for baking.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … It was only after discovering the ill health effects that that I even looked into the ethics of egg consumption which is almost more cruel to me than meat in hindsight (grinding up the unwanted boy chicks alive in a grinder or suffocating them in a trash bag?! Like wtf?! And then breeding female chickens that lay more eggs than they naturally do which destroys their health and keep them in a cage). Eggs are not something I like to look back on that I ate. If knew earlier how they were “made” I would have been horrified and quit them much sooner. I used to look at eggs as a romantic homesteading thing where the backyard chicken does not mind you taking her eggs but even free range organic chickens don’t have much room to live. And the breeding program still applies to them where the boy chicks are killed. I know someone who has the “romantic chicken homesteading dream”. She has a piece of land with chickens and she takes the eggs to eat. But for the hens to lay eggs there must also be a male chicken in the area (so even supermarket eggs can be fertilized). One of the chickens got smart and hid her eggs from the egg taking lady. That chicken escaped for a few weeks only to come back with a shit ton of baby chicks. The hen had hidden her eggs in the woods nearby because she knew they would otherwise get taken. Even backyard chickens do not like it when you take their eggs.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Serves you right for eating 3 a day. My 8 a week is fine :P
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I know a guy who takes steroids and eats 6 eggs a day for the protein plus all the other usual stuff. I tell him all the time he'll be dead of heart attack by age 50.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I just wish I could find that 8 to 5 local job I've been chasing for a while. Once I have easier to live with working times then I can plan better meals more often. That profile pic of mine was only 4 years ago, just before I started truck driving. My diet was 99% perfect then because I had the time. When you work 15 hours, get 9 hours off then work another 15 hours your diet goes out the window, you take what you can get when you can get it, the quicker the better.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … https://photos.app.goo.gl/WrDuQmRot3URsncy7
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I can't believe you won't show me the eggvidence. I never even suggested I was an egglover! You're making up excuses!
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Saved!NodleyEditing … That's the vegan way :D
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Saved!NodleyEditing … https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/how-many-eggs-can-i-safely-eat
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … That's a compelling short answer, Nodman. Even though it doesn't contain any direct evidence or studies, Harvard's staff picks are probably very reliable sources.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I don't really need to provide evidence because animals have been eating eggs since the beginning of time. Obesity is a new disease and is nothing to do with eggs. It may have something to do with excessive egg munching, but that's a whole different story. Hell, even too much water is poisonous and too much sun gives you cancer.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Too much sugar doesn't have any bad effects though, I can eat as much sugar as I want, all the time.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Yeah, I could too. One day when you hit around 40 your body will change. I was always underweight as a kid, it was only starting at the gym aged 15 that I started to put on any weight.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … please. no. don't do this to me
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Saved!NodleyEditing … One day you'll notice your stomach is bulging a tiny bit then soon after that BOOM! It's too late! You're now skinny fat. Everything you used to eat just makes you fatter. It's salad and water for 6 months then a careful diet to maintain your weight.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … nO
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I haven't had sugar since god knows when. Well, I guess beer has sugar.... but anyway, I just bought a tiramasu for after tea tonight because I saw it and I wanted. Oh that reminds me, when Claire got pregnant she got dessert cravings and I got them too, I used to go out to shop at like 10pm and buy tiramasu's. So that was the last time I had sugar.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … And I had a tiramasu in Paris too.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Sorry Husky, I just assumed you loved eggs because you wanted "eggvidence". :-P So you don't love eggs then or you are in the middle? I'm confused now. Let me know. I could digg up many papers but I don't really know what good that will do. I can't imagine anyone wanting to read these boring papers unless they are really REALLY interested in that specific topic. (are you?) I don't collect everything I read into a file or something, I just remember the important points that are relevant to me and move on. I'd have to look up studies again and find a nice selection that covers the most important points. That took me many weeks back when I looked into eggs last time and I don't feel like investing my time in find boring papers again. It is not a simple task and as I said I don't really care to convince anyone, I'm just expressing my point of view on eggs, nothing more just like how I express my opinion that OOT >>> FF7 (but I still have to find the evidence for that one.... ). Anyone can look up papers on google scholar and there are also ways to bypass the paywall, so if you are interested you can find what you are looking for. But you will have to do the work yourself :-P
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … I used to make buckets of tiramisu. Everyone loved that recipe. I remember eating heaps of it when I made it and nobody could stop eating until the buckets were empty. Completely unhealthy but it was so tasty. It's practically only cream, sugar and finger biscuits.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Nod your body is just more efficient. You should be thankful you need less food because you save on food costs. :-P
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I bought oranges for this weeks snacks for a little more vitamin C because I been slacking in that area recently. I also bought broccoli, green beans, carrots, cauliflower and parsnips. And of course sweet tatties, I always buy sweet tatties! I got bell peppers and red onions too. So my plan for this week is to do a chicken dinner with all the veggies and some root veg mash, I'm doing spicy chicken wraps with the peppers and onions, I'm having fish one night probably with mushy peas and air fried sweet potato chips. I have some minced beef so I could make some meatballs with tomatoes, peppers, onions, garlic and a bit of pasta or a garlic bread maybe. Friday tea I will try getting a meat free meal in again. I might swap out the chicken wraps for a curry, the curries I make are simple made with tomatoes, onions, peppers, chillies, garlic etc and spices, nothing unhealthy gets added. If I had steak I'd probably have it with mediterranean veg and salad instead of the meatballs, but red meat once a week is enough. All round I think that's a decent diet plan for the average person. Almost everything is made fresh, except mushy peas and pasta and wraps and garlic bread I guess. Next week will be different, I like to mix things up, I like a pasta bake, home made ones with real tomatoes not just a jar from the supermarket! A spaghetti bolgnese is healthy too if you make it yourself like we always do. It's very cheap really to eat good healthy tasty foods, it's certainly cheaper than buying pre-made shit from the supermarket. I love a beef and vegetable stew sometimes. I also went a bit rogue and bought loads of jars of pesto, peppers, sun dried tomatoes, jalapenos, chillies etc etc, all the stuff to just jazz a meal up a little bit to keep them interesting. Oh and I bought more olives because my cravings are still going strong.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I just can't believe you without eggvidence is all. I'm losing trust in you, just being denied any eggvidence! Every time you hopped into a Rukk or Nod health post, I thought you were the sane one! You know who else tells me there's evidence for their fringe beliefs but that I have to search for it myself? Conspiracy theorists! heheh conspireggcy
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Oh I forgot to tell you about our home made chilli! We have that a lot. It's basically a bolognese with some spicy shit added. All natural and healthy. The hotter the chillies the better.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … You thought Klem was the sane one? Wait, which one was I?
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … The guy who watched unreliable YouTubers (:
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I thought that was Rukk? Really, you guys think I'm rukk?
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I'm offended! I'm so offended I'm complaining to the manager of favslist.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … (:
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Sorry to disappoint Husky. I'm just as lazy as anyone else. :-P
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Nod, just put an airfryer in your truck and a mini fridge and you won't have to eat Mcdonalds all the time. Maybe it will save you from trucker death. :-P https://cdltraining.org/truck-driver-life-expectancy/
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I have a fridge freezer and a microwave already. My drinking water is super delicious and cold.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … What. You have no excuses then.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I'm lazy
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … 4 reasons multivitamins don't work: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fL8aaq-kXHA 2:27 "vitamin A should be in the form beta-carotene" I actually saw this video before this status so I was surprised to see the conversation steer toward Vitamin A. Apparently vitamin A is acidic and beta carotene is the only form that avoids this. My multivitamin even comes w a warning that pregnant/nursing women shouldn't take more than a certain amount of vitamin A *unless* it's beta carotene. What's kind of funny is that this multivitamin's Vitamin A content is stated as being comprised of both beta carotene and retynil acetate, but it doesn't specify how much of each. =P
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Vitamin A is fine in eggs rukk, eggs aren't toxic and remember fats absorb vitamins and eggs have the fats. Eat eggs AND carrots/sweet tatties.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Almost nobody needs to supplement vitamin A. It's strange that people even want it in a multi vitamin. Eggs are not toxic in the doses people eat them in that is of course true but they are unhealthy though. Almost all foods have fats so no reason to specifically seek out egg fat and cholesterol. The fact that you can get away with eating eggs does not make them healthy. I can get away with eating crisps and crisps are not toxic but they are pretty bad even if you don't feel it right away.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Eggs are proven to have many health benefits. Too much of anything is toxic even water.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Klemmy, you can't throw around fringe beliefs without eggvidence, or you look like a luneggtic. Maybe you're not lazy, you're just schizophrenegg!
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I wanted to make more egg puns (:
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Saved!NodleyEditing … You need to poach some new yolks
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Your puns have scrambled my brain
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I can farm these yolks out, I'll lay them all on you
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I was going to make a cock joke but I chickened out
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I fried my best but I can't crack another egg joke. I'll have to shell out for a joke book
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … loll you really want the eggvedence don't you husky. It's not a fringe belief it's pretty mainstream science. :-P That's why I really don't feel like I need to prove my point. Maybe one day when I have nothing to do I'll make a giant egg post where we can look at the egg science. Thinking eggs are healthy is actually more tinfoil hat science. There are studies where smoking is found to have health benefits in some conditions but that does not mean smoking is healthy overall. Same for eggs. Also proof does not exist. There is only evidence, nod. I think only in math you can prove a formula or something but not with other things. Otherwise maybe we would already live in a world where everyone had opened up their crown chakra and third eye while chanting scientific facts.
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … I'm on the fence on eggs. Still undecided. But I never have eggs anyway so what does it matter. I've had 1.25 pounds of ground beef last night and a nearly an entire pot of beef stew the day before. With that I can hopefully scrape by without any egg powers.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … That's a lot of mince for one person.
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Saved!rockshard PhDEditing … What's funny is I guilt myself for eating protein bars but feel fine physically. Meanwhile it's the bread that breaks me. This is some sort of wakeup call. This changes things for sure.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … wOW, your egg beliefs are far from mainstream, it's eggstremely fringe!
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Saved!NodleyEditing … My bet is that rukk is the next favslist member to kick the bucket
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Okay, I've just gone through dozens of studies on Google Scholar and paywalled sources, and now I don't trust Klem anymore, which also means I don't know anymore if Nod's YouTube videos are actually dumb >:( -- I also really lost trust after Klem said she didn't need to prove her point because this was mainstream science. This whole egg point is just betrayal after betrayal. I hardly ever eat eggs. I JUST CARE ABOUT THE TRUTH! :(
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I did specifically search for articles to support Klem's claims, but studies with those results were in the minority (even when specifically searching for them), and were very easy cases of correlation not equaling causation. I also found followup studies dismissing the dangers of eggs.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Imma egg you on. Eat that vitamin A!
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Saved!NodleyEditing … And it's ok to call us out, no need to walk on eggshells
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … more like falling on broken glass cuz I've been sTABBED IN THE BACK
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I'll re COOP your trust
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … You don't need to trust me Husky that's perfectly fine. :-) But It's a rocky road out there. You need to check who funded the research and if the studies are well designed and you need to learn how to interpret them. No way in hell that you can understand what is going on in these studies in just an afternoon of browsing. My friend studied molecular nutrition, did a phd and now gets to decide what studies to fund. She also does not think eggs are fine and she is much more well equipped to understand this stuff than you or I. It's pretty well established that eggs are bad for cardio vascular health and have other ill effects.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … here Husky watch this egg playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNKMPBSZu7E&list=PL5TLzNi5fYd9lgvt0-8Oi9BIQ-jO2PBD3
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … This is a good very recent video to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C4OHOcptiE&t=42s in tandum with this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C4OHOcptiE&t=42s and this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhAO9MMuQrw&t=39s They also go into the problems with research.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … YouTube: The go to "proof" for everything :D
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I need to hatch some new puns mine are eggxhausted.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Says the guy who posted the original youtube video. :-P The videos are actually from an independent research team that made the videos for the lay person to understand a bit more about nutrition. A lot of work went into them. The video's cite many studies and give a lot of insight. You should give them a chance if you are interested to know more about the downsides of eggs. But you don't have to. It's not my job to convince or give "proof". If someone cares to know about eggs and health I think these are great video's to get started. You can also look at the resources and papers used in them as well after you have seen them. You can still eat eggs for taste even if they are unhealthy. Nobody is saying you have to stop eating them. If you still want to believe eggs are healthy, you are completely free to do so. You'd be wrong though. :-)
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I think there's no point even talking about the nutritional value of eggs, because I think Klem LIKES disliking eggs
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Saved!NodleyEditing … It's the vegan way. I'm vegan tonight, Claire has prepared some kind of sauce. I can see sundried tomatoes in it and red onion. There's no meat cooked though, I think I wore her down so we now have a meat free day every week.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … It's always the same though. If I go on a Nintendo site and say FFVII did this thing good NOBODY would agree. They would say x Nintendo game did it better, or just that it straight up sucks. Everybody is so tribal over everything. I'm tribal over my country, I want England to be English and I want Spain to be Spain. I want every part of the world to have it's own culture. But for things that don't matter such as video games or food I can't be bothered. Yeah, veg is good for you, it's a fact. My only gripe with veg alone is that it's not an optimum diet, the human body benefits by having animal products too. I like Nintendo and Sega and Sony and Commodore and Atari and Microsoft(kind of) because if I only get an Xbox I miss out on games beneficial to my enjoyment such as Gran Turismo.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I wish Nintendo games were on PC
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I don't really want anywhere to be English, but if the English have to be somewhere, I hope they don't step foot off of England
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I'm happy to send all the foreigners home too. When I used to travel Europe in the 80s it was crazy, you'd cross a border and it'd be completely different to somewhere 200m up the road on the other side of the white line. Everywhere was such an experience, but now most of Europe is kinda samey, and you don't even stop at a border. Even Egypt and Tunisia were not much different in the built up areas. Maybe I should go to Japan after all, I guess it's what I really want to see in a trip. But I really wanna see those massive new york skyscrapers first.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … They are massive.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … If you love European culture so much then you need to let her go :(
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … (that's a joke, I'm also an extremely virulent racist)
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … (but only racist against the english)
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … I'm not really sure why I'm suddenly being questioned so much while nobody here brought any counter arguments. Calling me a vegan is no argument. btw. ;-P "I think there's no point even talking about the nutritional value of eggs. Because I think Klem LIKES disliking eggs" Nope not really and what I think about eggs or what you think about eggs has nothing to do with being able to talk facts. I don't particularly care about eggs either way because I would not eat them even if they were healthy by this point because I would feel bad for the chickens. To me eggs are things other people eat and I have nothing to do with. I do not care about eggs in relation to eating them. I don't care about eggs being unhealthy. I similarly don't care about cake being unhealthy. I'll call anybody out that calls cake healthy but I don't "like disliking" cake. I just would find it strange if people were to defend cake and claim cake also had good things like energy and it's a chocolate cake so the coco powder has good components that are healthy as well and there are also strawberries on it! That's what I'm responding to, that and your very strong request for information (and now you don't want to look at it) I don't really care about the health of things I don't eat to be honest. But the reason I stopped eating them was health related, so if someone reading this one day finds themself questioning the health of eggs, they might think of the old Klem and look into it a bit more. I'm not simply pulling what I say out of my ass. I really think you're better off not eating eggs if you’re purely talking health. I liked the taste of eggs and if I did not care about the chickens I would eat eggs sometimes probably but defiantly not 7 a week. I'm not saying you will die if you do that, I'm just saying they are not health promoting.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I think from the first sentence this is just bad faith engagement, and I'm very disappointed in you >:( and I'm also disappointed in you for dismissing the studies I found by insinuating I don't understand them, and then citing *YouTube videos* by a pop health site with an obvious agenda. I actually believed you when you were talking with Nod before, now I'm thinking you just believe what you hear from NutritionFacts! I'm bothered by this shattered trust!
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Also I think Nod was right, this is the vegan way
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Saved!NodleyEditing … It's every extremists way. People have confirmation bias, they want to be rght more than finding the truth. I follow a carnivore page because the vegan menes are hilarious but the diet advice is shocking, they cherry pick the same 3 things and ignore everything that goes against it.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … My friend has been playing a pirated copy of the new Zelda game for the past couple days, but I assumed he got it 2-3 days before the game released. Turns out the game releases about a week from now.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … They still knocking out Zelda games huh? I'm completely out of the loop now when it comes to gaming.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I always get my games at a steep discount (and mostly play games via family share), so I just scroll my Steam library to browse games, I don't know much about new releases either
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Husky, I don't get my facts from nutritionfacts. It would be very stupid to get my info from one place. I found these videos after learning about eggs (and other things) independently and these videos summarize a lot of what I learned so they are handy to show. I just posted these videos because they offer a lot of different info on eggs in an understandable way with verifiable sources and you kept pushing the point of wanting info so I try to accommodate, but as I said I'm not going to spend many many hours collecting papers again. It costs a lot of time and that's not something you can expect from someone on a forum just wanting to chat. I'm just a person. It's not my job to be some kind of nutritional info giver and I don't ask anybody to trust me. I don’t want that position. Nobody should base their opinion on somebody else's. More than anything I would love it if you would talk more about your own view instead. More like what are the reasons you believe something. I’d like it if that were possible, that’s interesting. I think the reasoning is interesting in itself. I also just want to be able to say what I think just like anyone else.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … I'm not dismissing you Husky, I’m sorry if it came off that way. I don’t dismiss the papers you found. You have not even shown them so how can I think anything about them. I was just trying to say it would be a miracle if anybody would be able to understand what was going on in this field in such a short period of time. I needed my friend to help me with reading papers at fists because it's really difficult and often misleading. It took me a year or something to form a bit of an understanding of what was going on with these type of papers and dealing with the information in the correct way and even then it is hard. I am just a regular lay person but I do my best and I talk about my point of view just like anybody else. I am simply interested in nutrition as a hobby. It’s fascinating to learn more about how the body works but I’m not claiming I have the truth or something I just say what I think based off of what I learned just like anyone here and I express my opinion strongly just like you guys are doing. I am sure I can be wrong, but then I’d like to hear why you think I am wrong and not just “I found papers and I don’t trust you anymore and therefore I don't know if I should trust nod's video”. You say you don't trust my videos but therefore Nods video becomes more trustworthy? How does that logic work? How do you know the info in the video's I posted is correct or incorrect? How do you know the info in nod's video is correct or incorrect? Is what you believe based on trust? If you have arguments we can talk about it. I am actually interested in what you think yourself. Why do you think I am wrong about eggs being unhealthy? What do you think about eggs and health? I am honestly interested because you have not said anything about that yet. I kind of know where Nod stands on eggs but nothing about what you think. If you don't have an opinion that is also fine but then tell me something about that.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I like your opinion Klem, keep it coming. Two people can disagree on something totally but still remain good friends. If I'd ignored vegans all my life I'd have never cut down on meat so there's always more to learn.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Thank you for the invitation. :-) I like it when people with different opinions can talk. It results in more interesting conversations and I have also learned a lot that way. Not everyone likes to have more challenging conversations though so I can understand that but when it happens it's really nice.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I don't actually trust Nod's videos, I just don't ascribe the same expert status to your takedowns of his videos. My take on eggs is that they seem healthy from the studies I've found, but I haven't said this because I didn't care about taking a side, I just wanted to know if your stance was true.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I don't trust my videos, most of the time it's just random crap I find that's kinda interesting. Maybe except that fasting one, they said they did studies and proved fasting was no better over a long period than a healthy balanced calorie deficient diet. I 100% trust that one. I'm sure others have good evidence too but whatevs, I can't even remember what I post. The thing is I know my body. Does anybody else here have a body like the one in my pic at age 40? I've tried it all, I've done it all. Obviously being a former fighter nearly 20 years ago we had diet people in and they told us about how the top athletes will load up on pasta for energy, and there's also the keto way which long distance runners do I believe. But I've tried many things and the time my body was at it's peak was when I did what I tell you all to do. 50/30/20 macros. Try to make your carbs veg like sweet tatties so 50% veg when you can, but some pasta and rice is fine, you're not trying to win a marathon, enjoy your life a bit. But then get some white and red meat and some fish every week, and keep your fats healthy when possible(have a fucking pizza though on a Saturday just because life has to be fun) because your body needs fats, don't cut them out entirely. Look at my pic: 20% of my diet was just fat! I wasn't fat. I was in great shape, full of energy and middle aged too. It is really difficult to eat like that, I know because I can't replicate it now because of my job and Isabella(and willpower). But anybody childless working a standard 8 hour day can look like that easily and it's dirt cheap too. The fish is the most expensive part but I'd say £25-£30 a week to feed me plus whatever a takeaway cost on a Saturday. Your body will tell you everything you need to know. It will tell you/show you if you eat too much or too little or the wrong things. Look in the damn mirror and be honest with how you feel, are you waking up feeling fantastic and raring to go in a morning?
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Let me run you through my diet back then. Breakfast - oats. 10am snack - egg sandwich. Lunch - sweet potato and mackerel/cottage cheese. 3pm snack - banana. Tea - just go wild!(within reason). Chicken/Salmon dinner with veg. Beef chilli con carne with rice. A curry, pick your protein and carbs. Always remember it's not a daily thing, the daily thing is a rough guide as are calories, you can balance it over the week. Eat shit Monday and cut something Friday, the body doesn't work on days it works on forever so it doesn't matter. I was eating 2500+ calories a day at 9 1/2 stone, 133lbs, 60kgs and still looked like that because my diet was bang on. If you look good and you ain't taking any PEDS the chances are you're getting it right. But I know a vegan bodybuilder and he looks great too. But he owns a gym and doesn't "work" and can spend all day working out and afford organic everything but that's a totally different discussion. I bet I could outrun him any day of the week though, there's a reason vegan athletes are not at the top of everything. Sure, the human body is amazing and we can do all these things on different diets but overall long term I'm 99.9% sure a balanced diet is optimum.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … And again calories - just a damn guide! I could eat a donner kebab for breakfast and another for tea, or I could eat the diet I described abouve for about the same calories. Which is healthier? Never ever go on calories alone, it drives me mad when these slimming thingys just bang on about calories. No, bang on about good food instead.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … What kind of fighting did you do? Did you WIN?
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I won every single MMA fight I had. Not quite that winning percentage as a boxer though, and even less in bars. I'm freaky strong for my size which only goes so far in boxing, but in MMA it can be THE factor, especially at 9st(I still say me aged 27/28 against anybody 9st). In bars my problem was that I was 9st lmao.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … So you think eggs are healthy from the studies. But how are they healthy then? What health benefits do you get from them? It is one thing to say something isn’t harmful in reasonable amounts but it is another thing to call something healthy. When I think of healthy, I think of something that benefits or maintains your health in a positive manner and does not harm your health in the long or short term. Or it should at least help you more than it harms you.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … I think the most important reason why I would never call eggs healthy is that eggs are very high in cholesterol and eggs do raise blood cholesterol significantly. Not that significantly in people who already have high cholesterol (because you plateau at one point where it cannot go much higher anymore) which is most people and very significantly raises it in people who have low and healthy cholesterol levels which is almost no one except for people with a diet low in cholesterol. Higher blood cholesterol levels lead to plaque build-up in your arteries and more not so fun things. Even kids and babies in this day and age are found to have these plaques in their arteries. That should not be happening to kids. The relatively humble amount of protein and vitamins you get from eating eggs, does not weigh up to the amount of cholesterol in my eyes. Especially considering you can get those proteins and vitamins elsewhere without the cholesterol. Now if you eat healthy and eat lots of fiber (very important because your body needs fiber to transport things it does not want out of the body in a timely manner like excess cholesterol) you can probably eat a few eggs or other high cholesterol foods here or there without much of a problem or maybe you won the genetic lottery and you don’t absorb a lot of cholesterol naturally, but it’s still healthier to strive for as little dietary cholesterol as possible because it can very quickly be too much but I think people who eat eggs in reasonable amounts could still have a healthy diet overall. I think I’d see eggs more as a treat if I were to eat them. Something to enjoy now and then and not something to eat regularly for nutrition.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Your information is out of date Klem, that harvard link I posted said that the old 300mg of cholesterol they thought was right is actually wrong.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … But it's been like this since I can remember. One week butter is healthy the next it's not, and it's the same for everything. I think the best thing is to eat natural foods and avoid processed, and do everything in moderation. Caveman nod didn't pop down the cavemarket and pick up a dozen eggs. He didn't manage to kill a cave cow with a sharpened stick everyday either. Cave nod went around foraging and grabbing cave chickens when he was quick enough and found cave eggs when he found them.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … I think corruption in the industry is to blame for a lot of misunderstandings and the overall extreme food culture online. If you muddy the research as much as is the case now in almost every domain, it’s almost impossible for regular people to know what’s true and what is not. It is very difficult to navigate the research and all the click bate articles and hip trends. In the end though I think most people just eat whatever they like. I think it is still possible to get closer to the truth though but it’s not made easy for us and it takes a long time and it is an ongoing process. Maybe noticing what foods make us feel healthy and what foods make us feel trash is a step in the right direction.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Oh yeah about the Harvard thing. They seem to be saying that recent research makes them rethink but “recent studies still don't offer a consistent answer”. The science is defiantly not settled and if I look at recent studies I can also see there are a lot of conflicting findings going on. I remember reading a study controlling for saturated fat to single out cholesterol’s effects and that study found that dietary cholesterol did actually raise blood cholesterol. It can even both be true that both saturated fat and cholesterol raise blood cholesterol significantly. New research is not necessarily better. I think you really have to keep in mind the lobbying of industries. They are very powerful and are able to influence research, guidelines and even definitions. It’s like American politics. When research suddenly changes like this like when alchehol was being touted as having health benefits, I think it’s smart to remain sceptical. Eggs have a lot of saturated fat also so…. Yeah, still not looking good to me, and also not to the Harvard article’s logic, even if they later go on to somehow say the classic lines of “eggs can be part of a healthy diet”. But never do they say eggs are healthy, they say “likely suffers no harm” they are wording things very carefully.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I think corruption in vegan health activism is responsible for most misunderstandings, as they actually are an extreme online food culture (:
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … As a genetic lottery winner (okay, I do have glasses, but recently someone told me I still look like a high schooler AND IT MADE MY YEAR I THOUGHT I WAS STARTING TO LOOK 25)--I'm not gonna continue my comment, I think I'm just gonna sit with the elation that I still look young. Seems to be one of the things I value most in my life
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Chickens in the wild only lay eggs in spring and summer (and only 15 or so a year and not 300 like the chickens we breed now). Cave nod should go without eggs the rest of the year.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … You can't blame vegans for bad science. The bad science was there long before veganism gained popularity. Not eating meat or dairy is also not an extreme diet. You can have an extreme vegan diet if you want just like you can have an extreme omnivore diet. I could argue most people's diets are extreme. The western diet that most people eat is not leading us to health and that's not because of veganism. Very very few people are vegan and nobody listens to them anyway, so I think it's strange to blame vegans in general. Also vegan activism is different from veganism and vegans just being vegan and veganism is also different from extreme vegan online food culture. There have defiantly been trendy people eating extreme "vegan" diets but that does not mean all vegans have extreme diets. Most vegans just want to be left alone and eat normally the way they want including me.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I know that studies are fixed, whoever funds it gets the result they want.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Chickens only lay eggs in spring but it's always spring somewhere on Earth lol. Now you've got me thinking about diet on a bigger scale. Humans live in the freezing cold arctic circle and the hot sunshine on the equator. We should have different dietary needs depending on where we live. A one size fits all just isn't right. Some animals hibernate over winter, but some humans just moved there. I wonder if we've been there long enough for evolution to have started changing their bodies. I mean, white people evolved pale skin for vitamin D right? There has to be differences internally too.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … "Egg, as one of the most conventional foods, as well as one of the best nutrition sources for human being [1,2,3], is rich in protein with high biological value [2,4]. The protein quality of egg protein is second only to breast milk, and is the protein closest to breast milk in nature, almost up to 98% of the egg protein can be absorbed effectively by human body [2,5]. In recent years, nutritional and medical scientists in China and abroad have made some new discoveries of eggs referring to its nutritional values and functions in health care, such as nourishment of brain and improvement of intelligence, protection of liver, prevention and treatment of atherosclerosis, prevention of cancer and delaying of aging" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9102658/ The study goes on to find that organic eggs are slightly more healthy than normal eggs. It lists every little difference in the structure of white and yolk and tells you who funded it too. Organic eggs do taste better, I love fresh laid proper eggs, I want some chickens now but my cats would eat them.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Humans also evolved and are still evolving the ability to digest lactose, and people in certain parts of the world are far more likely to be able to digest lactose than in other parts. I think that's fun.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I just went out for eggs. £1.80 for 12 large free range eggs or £4.40 for 10 mixed weight organic eggs.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m513 "The results from our cohort study and updated meta-analysis show that moderate egg consumption (up to one egg per day) is not associated with cardiovascular disease risk overall. Findings were consistent across multiple participant and study characteristics except for geographical region. We found that egg consumption was associated with a slightly lower cardiovascular disease risk among Asian cohort"
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … Oh man I’m all egged out… :-P That paper only compares regular eggs to organic ones. They are not looking at the actual health effects of eggs in humans. Saying something is a conventional food or one of the best sources for certain components or a source of “high quality” nutrients does not say much about health outcomes as you have to look at not just the positive components but also the unhelpful ones like saturated fat and cholesterol and weigh them against each other and test it in humans. The paper just lift those statements in the quote from other papers that also just hone in on eggs alone, compare them to nothing and do not look at the actual health effects. I know I liked organic eggs the most. They taste better than regular ones. Some have really fat large orange yolks that taste better than the yellow ones.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Did you read the 2nd study?
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35360933/ “Conclusions: In this prospective cohort study and updated meta-analysis, greater dietary cholesterol and egg consumption were associated with increased risk of overall and CVD-related mortality. Our findings support restricted consumption of dietary cholesterol as a means to improve long-term health and longevity.”
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Saved!NodleyEditing … "consumption of 1 additional 50-g egg daily was associated with significantly increased CVD risk" the word additional is key in that study. Additional, so another egg or on top of what? Another egg? More cholesterol? Of course more is bad. My study shows 1 egg a day has no link to cardiovascular disease.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059393 This goes into why it matters what you compare eggs with and it also has implication for the paper you posted since the background diet matters a whole lot. It matters what you replace with eggs. “With this useful feeding trial framework, we can conclude, as the authors did, that men eating high-cholesterol foods and eggs had a higher risk of death than the men consuming more calories from the typical background diet. However, when the model explicitly contrasted eggs against higher amounts of dairy, processed meats, and other high-cholesterol foods, men eating more eggs and fewer of these other products actually had a lower risk of death. The comparator diet clearly matters very much, even reversing conclusions altogether from eggs being harmful to beneficial.” This is why it’s so hard to understand the research around this because people eat shit diets anyway so sometimes your diet is so shit that replacing the worst shit with eggs will improve your health. But if your diet is less shit, eating eggs could make your diet worse.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … But that's a dietry issue not an egg issue. 1 egg a day as part of a balanced diet is no risk to your health as shown in the 2nd study I posted.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … I mean, if a guy has 1 egg a day with a fried breakfast or with steak or gammon of course it's unhealthy. But that's not the issue here.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … They are actually saying that if that guy were to eat less of his usual unhealthier foods like butter and sausages, because he replaced some of those calories with egg, his diet improves in healthiness, but if he does not eat butter and sausages anyway and he normally eats foods with less cholesterol and fat and he replaces some of those calories with egg his mortality risk goes up. So it would be the similar to if you normally eat muffins all day but replace one muffin with a piece of white bread, you get healthier or at least you won't see an increased risk from white bread, but if you replace your whole wheat bread with white bread, your diet becomes less healthy.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … It doesn't though. My study using 32 years worth of data shows 1 egg has no effect.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Objective To evaluate the association between egg intake and cardiovascular disease risk among women and men in the United States, and to conduct a meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies. Design Prospective cohort study, and a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies. Setting Nurses’ Health Study (NHS, 1980-2012), NHS II (1991-2013), Health Professionals’ Follow-Up Study (HPFS, 1986-2012). Participants Cohort analyses included 83 349 women from NHS, 90 214 women from NHS II, and 42 055 men from HPFS who were free of cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, and cancer at baseline. Main outcome measures Incident cardiovascular disease, which included non-fatal myocardial infarction, fatal coronary heart disease, and stroke. Results Over up to 32 years of follow-up (>5.54 million person years), 14 806 participants with incident cardiovascular disease were identified in the three cohorts. Participants with a higher egg intake had a higher body mass index, were less likely to be treated with statins, and consumed more red meats. Most people consumed between one and less than five eggs per week. In the pooled multivariable analysis, consumption of at least one egg per day was not associated with incident cardiovascular disease risk after adjustment for updated lifestyle and dietary factors associated with egg intake (hazard ratio for at least one egg per day v less than one egg per month 0.93, 95% confidence interval 0.82 to 1.05). In the updated meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies (33 risk estimates, 1 720 108 participants, 139 195 cardiovascular disease events), an increase of one egg per day was not associated with cardiovascular disease risk (pooled relative risk 0.98, 95% confidence interval 0.93 to 1.03, I2=62.3%). Results were similar for coronary heart disease (21 risk estimates, 1 411 261 participants, 59 713 coronary heart disease events; 0.96, 0.91 to 1.03, I2=38.2%), and stroke (22 risk estimates, 1 059 315 participants, 53 617 stroke events; 0.99, 0.91 to 1.07, I2=71.5%). In analyses stratified by geographical location (P for interaction=0.07), no association was found between egg consumption and cardiovascular disease risk among US cohorts (1.01, 0.96 to 1.06, I2=30.8%) or European cohorts (1.05, 0.92 to 1.19, I2=64.7%), but an inverse association was seen in Asian cohorts (0.92, 0.85 to 0.99, I2=44.8%). Conclusions Results from the three cohorts and from the updated meta-analysis show that moderate egg consumption (up to one egg per day) is not associated with cardiovascular disease risk overall, and is associated with potentially lower cardiovascular disease risk in Asian populations. https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m513
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … There are there are a lot of problems and misunderstandings here that I have tried to explain before but I don't feel like going into it again. There are also more health related issues with eggs outside of cardio vascular disease to be concerned about. But you agree that eating more than one egg a day is not healthy right? I guess there we can agree on that at least.
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Saved!NodleyEditing … Yeah, eggs in moderation, just like any food, is fine and too many, just like any food, is bad.
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Saved!KlemoibEditing … I wonder what is too much for vegetables is. Most people don't even eat half of what is minimally recommended. I bet I'd get full long before I reach the vegetable limit.
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