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Saved!Back to a Top 50... don't burn me.
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Saved!Not ImportantEditing … Fifty of my fav video games have disappeared. This might be the worst day of my life. -
Saved!PapissamaEditing … This is going to hurt for some of you... but it's for the best. -
Saved!Not ImportantEditing … REEEEEEEE
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Saved!Not ImportantEditing … Fight me!
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Saved!Not ImportantEditing … Oh wait you are like 210cm and used to be a pro athlete. Please don't fight me.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … I'm not THAT tall, I'm 207cm.
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … Literally worse than black Hitler. -
Saved!Rich .Editing … I've always thought since this is a site for nerding out and making lists about things we're really into we should've been able to make a list as long as we wanted depending on how into something we are. Failing that though, having 100 spaces was a pretty good compromise. What's your logic for taking it away again Pape? I really can't think of a good reason for why a site that wants its members to list things should have a limit as low as 50 for what we can list and that's especially true for this list considering how into gaming the sites regulars are. Why is it for the best? -
Saved!MasterCrashEditing … Also, you keep doing this changes with promises that "it will be better", but what if you waited until it can be better todo these changes? Right now you're just making the site worse with little changes here and there. You're lucky you have a pretty loyal community that's willing to take the changes over and over again, but you run the risk of killing the site before you revive it. -
Saved!PapissamaEditing … A big emphasis will be put into the connection with other people - similar to the compatibility percentage we had on unikGamer . Just the action of ranking a single page will have a big effect between you and the rest of the community (friends and strangers). By limiting the rankings, we are making people's list more meaningful and easier to calculate those relationships on a technical level. For me these lists define who you are - so if I can force you make a decision on which game should make the cut because it defines you more as gamer, then the list accomplished its mission. With said, I will put a big effort a developing the collection/library aspect of Favslist. This part will allow to keep track of EVERY games you've played.
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Saved!Rich .Editing … So you're saying "You'll have to think harder about what to include in the limited space and that makes it more meaningful". I don't buy that, it'll just annoy me that there isn't room for me to make the list I want to make. If I'm back down to a top 50 games I won't have room for the childhood games I'm nostalgic about any more. I'll probably take games out of my top 50 because even though they're favourites of mine a one game per series rule was what I had to do last time we had a top 50 to make room for the list to show a decent array of the genres/series I'm into (I know I'm not the only one who did that). Ultimately someone who looks at my list after it's cut to a top 50 will know less about which games I like and less about what my preferences are. It'll be a less meaningful list, not a more meaningful one.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Yearly Top 10 lists are made for nostalgia :)
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Saved!Rich .Editing … If this is about making compatibility percentages easier to calculate then surely you could do that and let us keep our longer lists? Let us have honourable mentions (enough that the list can still go up to 100) but don't make them part of the calculations.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Ok, let me ask you a question, Rich. For you, what's the difference between ranking an infinite number of games as honorable mentions and listing an infinite number of games in your game collection?
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Another question - When you check out someone else's lists (not yours), do you honestly care of the games ranked from 50 to 100?
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Saved!MasterCrashEditing … Can I list them in any order in my collection?
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … And yes it helps our algorithm to not have to differentiate regular spots to honorable mentions, especially if we have a lot more people coming in.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … @Master Crash No but that could be easily feasible.
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Saved!MasterCrashEditing … I say this because, for example, I have all my games listed in #The Backloggery, I have all my albums listed in #rateyourmusic.com, I have all my music listed in #last.fm I have all my manga/anime in #MyAnimeList and I have all my movies listed in #Letterboxd. I do love listing my collections, but I have all of them listed already. Sure, have them all in one website is appealing, but in the end it only matters if it's as good or better than these websites made exclusively for listing these collections, since I already have them there.
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Saved!Rich .Editing … I don't think I'm ever going to bother with the collection feature Pape, there are already other gaming sites that have that feature (Darkadia, backloggery etc) and I've never bothered because that's not my thing. Going through the site's database ticking which games I own, which I've played and which I've finished isn't for me. The difference is if I'm making a list I can put them in order and show people how much I liked games compared to other games. That's not an option with a collection feature and it's not something the yearly lists provide either since you can only show how much you liked games in comparison to other games from the same year, not to everything you've played. Listing things and comparing them to each other is what the site's about for me (well, that and I just like the other members).
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Saved!Rich .Editing … And yeah actually, when I meet a new member on here I often check out their ATF games, ATF films and maybe a few others and scroll through them to see what we have in common. You'll find comments I've left on a few of the regulars lists where I say I like the games in their #50-100 and strike up conversations about why they put the games we have in common in the order they did. I rarely look at someone's yearly lists though.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … "That's not an option with a collection feature" - It IS an option. I can't believe that ranking a 100 games is the only reason you come back to Favslist. You're saying that the goal of a list is to show other people what you like best, which is some way true, but to me, that is the purpose of a collection. In my mind, lists are a way to connect with others. If you rank the Witcher III, you'll be "connected" to every other "Witcher III" fans. For me, if choose to rank something because you LOVE it (not just like), you also choose to connect with the people that ranked that page.
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Saved!Rich .Editing … Honestly Pape, I keep coming back to this site as often as I do because I like the small friendly community it currently has, not because of any of the site's features. Don't get me wrong I like the list-making premise of the site a lot but we get new lists I'm interested in making way too rarely for that to get me logging in here half as often as I do. I like thinking about what I enjoy and about what's best (and what's overrated/worst), comparing things and putting my opinions out there. That's why I like making lists, statuses and reviews on here for likeminded people to see. It really bugs me that the list-making side of the site's so limited (the list limit just got lower for the most popular list on the site, new lists don't come out often and you're against the idea of personal custom lists) and that that doesn't look like it's changing for the better.
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Saved!LizardTaroEditing … I think we should all wait for the new site update until we judge Papissama's decisions. He's the site admin and he knows what to do. The number of new users is stagnating and the site must focus on getting new users who actively participate in the community so changes must be made. Honestly I find it strange that people can rank up to 100 items in a single list. I often only rank a few items in a list. I would even go further and say that having 10 spots for every list on this website is enough. Honorable mentions should stay though for those who really want to rank more. One question though: is the new site update still coming this year? xD I've been waiting for ages! -
Saved!MasterCrashEditing … I'm sure the redesign will be good as well, but like I said, the redesign is still not here. In the meantime we are losing features, those changes don't bring new members, it loses members.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Thanks for sharing that, Richard. You know, everyday I'm trying to figure out what makes this community so special and I think I'm on the right track here. Limitless lists will not make you come everyday and it won't bring more people - it's something else. Like always, trust me on this, I won't break the site but I think I can make something really special with place. Bear with me for a little bit more time and then you can judge if I made the right calls or not.
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Saved!MasterCrashEditing … And mind you, I'm not using the honorable mentions in this list. I have 51 games ranked and I'm not worried about losing Tetrisphere from the list. But I'm the opinion that more features and choices are generally better than less.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Yes @Waluigifan ! It's coming this year. In a month or so, the app should be ready on iOS and Android. Thanks for your kind words ;)
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Saved!Rich .Editing … My take on how the site could get more members would be to bring lists out way more often (try to develop film/books/music/sport until you can attract communities interested in those as well as the gaming centric community you have at the moment) and to provide a personal custom lists feature so that people can use the database to make lists the site isn't offering and maybe never will to go on their profiles (that way members can still make the lists they want to make even if it's not official and doesn't get combined into a site wide list. Right now I run out of lists to make for weeks or even months at a time even though I'm full of list ideas). List-making is the core premise of your site, it's what differentiates favslist and there just isn't enough of it. An app, a redesign and features to encourage members with a lot of shared interests to befriend each other are all good ideas too but the core of the site is list making and giving opinions on things and I do think the last thing you ought to do is restrict that.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … My issue is I essentially treat the honorable mentions as normal parts of the list that don't happen to have points assigned. I actually make a point of ordering every single film or game or book as best I can throughout the list, and to do so consistently (if I add a new film to the favorite 80s movies list and it's also on the top 100, for example, with the two movies it's in between on the 80s list also on the top 100, it has to be between the two movies on the top 100 as well as the top 80s movies lists, and the scores also have to be consistent). There's actually a fair amount of thought put into what is ranked on which list and what its score is and where on the list it is ranked, even if it's the bottom one on the list. And at the moment at least I don't have back-ups of the lists themselves (though I have separate unranked lists of things with scores attached), so if the bottom 50 are all cut then that essentially erases all of that work. I understand that this is kind of a neurotic mindset about the whole thing, but surely I'm not alone in trying to curate my lists in this kind of way. -
Saved!MrZAPEditing … As for the community aspect, honestly while I do appreciate that, my lists are mostly for myself, so if I can't organize them the way I would like, it does cause some problems. Obviously some compromises and restrictions have to be made (when I first joined the site I tried to rank all the LotR films as one and you disagreed and said why it shouldn't be done, and I understood and accepted your reasoning), but I don't see why limiting the number of things listed necessarily has to be one of them. I think there are plenty of ways we can grow as a community and and learn to appreciate our shared interests or highlight specific things that many people like or whatever you want to do without limiting that kind of choice. What if, for example, you let people put as many things on a list as they wanted, but only counted the top 10 or 20, or even 5, in the calculations for what people have in common? That would let people have some more freedom, while also showing other people what someone is most passionate about and encouraging people with similar passions to connect with one another.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Deleted by himself
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Ok, here's something I can do. In the future, we'll have a badge (or reward) system for passionate people. Some badges will give you the ability to rank more games.
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Saved!Frederica BernkastelEditing … I don't mind this change at all. As long as the honorable mentions ain't gone since I do like that feature then I am fine. -
Saved!Sha EmberEditing … Agreed boss, nice trade between you and your users. I'd just like to add two things to this discussion, the first one being the lack of updates. Please Pape, can you give us dates, pictures or just tell us in the Favslist "Happening Now" (or in the Favslist brand page) what you're doing or when something is coming? Because the more we wait, the more we're bored. You can see the progress as an admin, but we can't, the only things we're actually observing are the bad consequences of all these changes: less spots in our lists, the reviews missing in the library page, we can't like the lists anymore, some titles aren't synchronized between the actual pages and the research bars, when we're commenting lists it doesn't redirect to the supposed aforementionned content and so on. And second thing, I liked it better when there were polls, and I really miss this. Even if it was to know what we'd be interested between a 1989 music albums list, a 2015 favorite books and a 1976 favorite movies, I'm sure people could discuss a bit and share some stuff (which could also buy you some time and we could also anticipate by adding pages before the release of the list). -
Saved!Gries HeEditing … Worst admin ever.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I think we can agree the whole "inner circle" would like one of those badges ;) -
Saved!LizardTaroEditing … Badges are a good idea, I have a similar feature in my forum. People should also get badges if they add a certain amount of pages, post a certain amount of posts etc. to make them feel special and stuff. And maybe a "Supporter" badge for those who donate money.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Glad that you like that badges idea. I'm also excited about it.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Deleted by himself
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … I disagree with everything that has or hasn't been said in this thread.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … but Gries, an inner circle badge. An inner circle badge!!
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Saved!MasterCrashEditing … Badges are fun, I like badges.
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Saved!Not ImportantEditing … I want badges just because I'm pretty confident in my chances of getting one.
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Saved!Filly VanilliEditing … Meanwhile I still can't expand my list beyond a Top 10 without something feeling "off" to me, lol. But cool. -
Saved!Gries HeEditing … We should set this place on fire. Who's with me? Grab your pitchforks y'all!
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Saved!MasterCrashEditing … DO we get to burn you inside?
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Saved!Rich .Editing … I don't think a two tier system where outstanding members earn a badge and get to make a longer list is a good solution to be honest. I like to think I contribute to the site enough that I'd be able to get one of these inner circle rewards myself but it'll still limit the experience of typical/new favslist members. If some of us get badges and some of us don't it'll split the community. How are you going to judge who's passionate enough to get to rank extra favourites Pape? Surely everyone who wants to rank 51 games wants to do it because they're passionate about 51 favourites, everyone who wants to rank 85 games is passionate about 85 favourites, everyone who wants to rank 100 favourites wants to do it because they feel they have 100 favourites that belong in a list together etc Seems like a pretty natural system of leaving members to decide for themselves how passionate they are.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I'm not sure if there's any downside to having endless honorable mentions, it would let everyone regulate their own listing rules. I'd feel super restricted by a top 50 movies list with no honorable mentions, I watch far too many films for that. I don't know exactly what you have in mind for the collection system, but it might not appeal to many of us as much as lists.
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … Filthy communists, the lot of them.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … btw I saw my 80th film of the year today. Don Jon. Pretty damned good. I like movies that make me contemplate the psychology behind every character. Usually it's semi-horror movies about sociopaths that do that.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Oh snap, my annual movie lists would be so long with more honorable mentions, and that's still if I only take "favorites" into account, not just "decent film at the bottom of my honorable mentions."
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … KILL KILL KILL DIE DIIIIIEEEE
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … I recommend psychiatric help
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … Yeah, my film lists are my main ones and they're super curated, from the all-encompassing Top 100 list (because it is a top 100 list) down to favorite documentaries and favorite films of 201X or whatever. Though to be honest it's less about what is my favorite and more about ranking (I'll put a film I dislike on a list of films for a year, even if it's near the bottom). I think the ability to just treat it as a ranking system is undervalued compared to "what is your favorite x?" I actually went and manually punched in all of the movies I've ranked 7.5 or over offline just to keep a back-up in case things are lost here, with tentative rankings after 100. Obviously I would prefer to just list/rank things here, since it's much simpler.
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … My point about passion was simply that obviously you'll be more passionate about the things at the top of whatever list you're talking about because those ARE your favorites, so it's reasonable to give those more weight on the leaderboards or when matching members together. I also think we shouldn't differentiate between "passionate" people and others. Everyone on this site is passionate about some of the things they listed, otherwise they probably wouldn't have joined in the first place. So I don't mind badges if they're purely aesthetic/flair, but I dislike the idea of users being barred from content unless they have badges. Richard is right that it would change the tone of the place.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … If I find a movie bad or mediocre I won't even bother ranking it. If I did, it'd get kicked off soon enough, as I'm always watching more.
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Saved!Ed KickEditing … I don't think it's fully an issue of having or not having honorable mentions or necessarily the amount of spots per list but rather an issue of people's list being "complete" or how they want it. Like with ATF gaming there are thousands of games that could be played, and in turn thousands that could be ranked, in turn providing more games that people could consider a favorite. I have 84 games on my ATF games list, those 84 not more, not less I consider to be my favorite(8.5 and above) so for me personally my ATF games list is complete when all games I have rated 8.5 and above are on there not a set #. Hopefully as I continue gaming that list of ATF or 8.5 and above should grow( I do hope to enjoy every game I buy afterall). So I think something similar to badges, but without restricting people while also incorporating the increased focus on collections/library could be the more you have checked as played (for games) the more you could rank (still up to a specific number since you seem to want some cap). So a base 50 will get points but if you have played a lot games you could go up to 100 or 150 or something. So it doesn't restrict new people who don't have badges and it doesn't restrict people who have played tons and tons of something, I mean someone who has played 500 games is sure to have more favs than someone who has played 50. That's just my two cents on the matter. -
Saved!MrZAPEditing … That's right. If there has to be a restriction for what are "favorites" or "best" then it should really be tied more to scores given than what number they are ranked. Nothing on my favorite films list is below 8.0 (and there are a few dozen films not on it that are also that rank, and even more if we include 7.5). Everything at that level is a 4 or 5 star film in terms of how much I liked it (even most of the 7.0s would be 4 stars). Every single film in that range is one that I largely enjoyed and probably made me think, and that I would gladly recommend to others, in general or according to tastes, and would feel a bit bad about excluding (my unranked but larger imdb list of recommendations has a cutoff of 7 stars, which is a kind of sister list to this). If you wanted to make the argument that I could have as many spots as I wanted but they would have to be scored and reach a certain score threshold, or only things reaching that threshold would be given points (probably better to avoid score inflation), even if it's higher than the above cutoff, I would think it was completely reasonable. It would only include things that we really liked, allowing each other to perhaps best see our tastes, and it would also encourage people to actually use the scoring system.
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … Commenting this status was the biggest mistake of my life.
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Saved!Silent GamerEditing … Completely agree guys. I don't even pay attention to the number accompanying the new lists. It could be a "Top 10 fave donkeys", a "Top 50 fave donkeys" or a "Top 17 fave Donkeys". I will only rank as many fave donkeys as I have. If I only have 3 then that is all I rank, if I have 100, then that is what I want to be able to rank. I understand that there is a point system to take into consideration, but any sort of limits on list sizes is going to achieve nothing but prevent me from making the lists I want. If I can't make a list to accurately show off my faves, then I'm afraid to say I just won't rank anything at all. I've always been against adding entries just to fill up a list. If it isn't an actual "fave" of mine then it doesn't get added. Simple as. Ironically, the only exception to this is in the yearly lists, because there is such limited choice. This makes my yearly lists the most inaccurate of all my rankings. That's why I never bother looking at them on the site. I just go straight for people's all-time faves. -
Saved!Husky WingEditing … I deleted all my Nintendo lists after the mergers, since I just couldn't make the lists I wanted. Crystal gets its own page but HEARTGOLD IS STILL COMBINEDSFDG
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … Funny that the mergers ruined my Nintendo lists above all else. You'd think they'd make more memorable original content ;p
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … None of this is of any interest to me.
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Saved!Silent GamerEditing … Have a notification Gries! ;) I know how much you love them!
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Saved!LizardTaroEditing … Why would Gries even comment if he's not interested in it? o.o
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Saved!Silent GamerEditing … Maybe he felt bad about spending all that time with his gf and wanted to let us know he still has time for us :P
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Saved!FincherEditing … Personally, I don't stop ranking when I reach the end of my favorites, since favorite isn't a precisely defined thing, anyway. My only hard rule there is that I don't rank things I don't like, so there are cases where I add things I only like pretty well because there's room to add them. That said...sometimes whatever's at the top of my list will be something I only like pretty well because it's just not a category I care that much about. At other times, whatever's at the bottom of the list is something I love because there's not enough spaces for everything I love. It's impossible to tailor the length of the lists so that everyone feels that they've got enough room and no one's adding things they only have a passing interest in (either to fill the list or to get maximum points for the things they do care about). I think my completionist instinct when it comes to the lists comes primarily from the lists having an end. If honorable mentions were limitless, I'd be more inclined to add them until I was satisfied and then stop, whether that's at 10 or 200. -
Saved!FincherEditing … As for the point of the site, it seems like you (Papissama) see this as a site to make friends with the lists as a way of facilitating that, whereas I see this as a site to rank things in lists with the social aspects as an extension of that. The thing is, it's not automatically the case that the site has to appeal to only one of the two.
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Saved!FincherEditing … You're reading all of this, right, Gries?
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … Of course. All of it. Please continue wasting precious iternet space with your boring pointless rambling that doesn't go anywhere and won't change nuttin
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Saved!Rich .Editing … I'm more curious whether Pape's still reading all of this.
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … No self-respecting man with a job and the faintest hint of dignity would.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Yes, I am.
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Saved!MasterCrashEditing … "No self-respecting man with a job and the faintest hint of dignity would." "You're reading all of this, right, Gries?" "Of course."
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … We need the best of both worlds for Favslist to work, Sean. Right now, all my focus goes into making the site as simple as possible for a newcomer when he/she comes in. Since Favslist launched, we've had too many features presented in a messy way. The app is a way for us to almost start from scratch, so we're going back to the basic and make sure that everything is nice and clean. Honorable mentions are pointless from my perspective. Having a Top 50 with 50 HN is no different than a Top 100 and right now a Top 100 is too intimidating for a newcomer. Top 100 will only be available to experience users of a particular topic (badges - won't be hard to get - just need to active to the site).
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Saved!MasterCrashEditing … Can yearly top albums not be like 5? Because that's less than the number of albums released in a week
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … But out of 20 albums you might listen in a year, only 5 should be considered your favorites, not 20. But you collection should have all 20 of them.
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Saved!MasterCrashEditing … I'm probably listen to more than 20 albums till the end of the year, I think 10 favorites would be a decent amount. At least. I mean, sure, there's always a chance that the year sucks ultra ass, but that's another thing completely.
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Saved!FincherEditing … "right now a Top 100 is too intimidating for a newcomer. Top 100 will only be available to experience users of a particular topic (badges - won't be hard to get - just need to active to the site)." Okay, I can see this working. But if you think honorable mentions are pointless, does that mean the users with badges will get points for all of their rankings and have more influence?
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Yes, they will. I think experience gamers choices should have more weight than people that just rank CoD and FIFA. I think that will be a nice way to balance the numbers of inexperience vs the quantity/quality of experience ones.
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … "Right now, all my focus goes into making the site as simple as possible for a newcomer"--being simplistic is great for newcomers, but it's just a downgrade for everyone that's gotten acquainted with the previously more extensive list of features. It's like if Android changed to just having one app store curated by Google-- sure, there's just one central hub, and no one could get confused, but for people that understand what they're doing they're only being restricted. These badges might be a perfect solution for this though!
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … I do admit that it might feel like a downgrade but these features will come back even stronger when our base is solid - like the recommendation system for example. Just be patient, guys. This journey we're sharing together might be frustrating at times but I'm positive it will be worth it in the end. :)
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Saved!MasterCrashEditing … We're with you till the end Pape, but we will also complain till the end. Specially because I'm trying to cram #Emanon and #Naru Narusegawa in the Design list, because I feel bad leaving one of them out, but there aren't 11 places. This is killing me.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … That's the spirit, MC. The more you suffer, the happier I am :D
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Saved!Husky WingEditing … #I made pages like this just for you to rank
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … And there you go, Pape, just confirming what we all already suspected. :P In all seriousness, what about the possibility of just being able to customize lists for personal preferences, like in a settings area? The default could be 25 or 50, and if you wanted to have more you could extend it to 100 or even unlimited. I realize that would probably take a lot of work to enable, so I don't really expect something like that, but I think in the long run more customizability is the right direction to go in. That would help both newcomers and veterans, without restricting anything to anyone.
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … I think we all learned a very valuable lesson today: you guys are boring and I don't give a shit about any of this.
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … Btw the app should've come out like a year ago. How long does it take to develop a fucking app for fuck's sake. Lazy devs
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … That could be a possibility, Zappy. Let's finish the app first, to calm Gries down, then we'll discuss this subject again when it's back on the table.
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … Oh, I'm calm. Calm as can be.
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Saved!Not ImportantEditing … Gries stop being such a whiny cunt, Jesus Christ.
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Saved!PapissamaEditing … Easy on the insult, NI. Let's be cool.
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Saved!Gries HeEditing … Yeah, you are hurting MUH FEELINGS
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Saved!LizardTaroEditing … Gries He has feelings? o.o
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Saved!MrZAPEditing … He only lets his girlfriend see them, though.
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Saved!Sir LaroseninEditing … Pourquoi? -
Saved!DjinnFighterEditing … Pourquoi indeed...
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