• 3 years ago
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    Yo, Griesy! Ya boi Ellen Page just changed his name to Elliot.
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    • DJ_JJSlider
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      DJ_JJSlider
      Editing … Oh, okay. Wait, what...?
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    • DJ_JJSlider
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      DJ_JJSlider
      Editing … We have to change his page somehow. Get it? Page? Phshaw...
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … I've seen like a dozen headlines of "Elliot Page of Umbrella Academy is transgender" and only now figured out who they were talking about.
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … Maybe now idiots will stop trying to cast a 33 year old Page as Ellie in a Last of Us adaptation.
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    • Husky Wing
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      Husky Wing
      Editing … A male actor can play a girl :)
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    • Silent Gamer
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      Silent Gamer
      Editing … But a 33 year old should not play a 14-year old
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    • Silent Gamer
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      Silent Gamer
      Editing … Remember Myrtle from the Harry Potter movies? What the fuck, why was a grown woman pretending to be a girl. It was jarring as fuck.
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … "How do you do, fellow kids?"
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    • Husky Wing
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      Husky Wing
      Editing … but Ellen Page looks super young :)
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    • Silent Gamer
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      Silent Gamer
      Editing … Not "early teenage" young though. It'd be like the 90's again with adults playing teens
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … I know it takes some getting used to but don't deadname bruh.
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    • Husky Wing
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      Husky Wing
      Editing … I'll probably keep forgetting so long as I keep seeing his older roles tbh. It's not a big deal, I'm sure Elliot doesn't care.
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … If he doesn't mind it's only because he'll never see it. Deadnaming is among the most hurtful things you can do to a trans person. It's not the sort of thing other trans people will be pleased to see either even if it isn't directed at them.
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    • Husky Wing
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      Husky Wing
      Editing … It's an honest mistake that any trans person should expect to see immediately after coming out. It's unreasonable to be upset by this.
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … I literally prefaced it with "I know it takes some getting used to," and you gave a flippant response and said you'll probably "keep forgetting," so yeah, forgive me if I don't clap.
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    • Husky Wing
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      Husky Wing
      Editing … I don't get why you'd twist my intentions, and I hope you're not just trying to provoke argument. It's not flippant, I just don't interact with Elliot, so the only contexts in which I engage with him are by watching his films--in most of which he was known as Ellen. When I see X-Men, I'm probably going to spout "wow Ellen is so adorable in this" without noticing, and that's an okay mistake to make. Why not interpret what I say more generously?
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … You made a blunder in etiquette, you received a gentle correction, and your response as of so far has been 1) I'll probably keep forgetting 2) It's not a big deal 3) The affected party probably doesn't care 4) Such mistakes are to be expected, and 5) Anyone upset by this is unreasonable. The only person who seems unreasonably upset here is you. Imagine if this was your response if say, you were speaking an unfamiliar language and accidentally said a racial slur against Laurence Fishburne, and somebody said "Hey, I know it's probably the language barrier but that word has a racist connotation."
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    • Husky Wing
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      Husky Wing
      Editing … This comparison doesn't fit. I've known Elliot as Ellen for years, referring to him as such will be a reflexive mistake, easily corrected enough to not merit any fair upset. I'm not likely to think about Elliot outside this conversation or his movies, I'll surely forget, maybe until his next big movie I'm into.
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … I'm not trying to start an argument. I haven't called you an asshole, a transphobe or a bigot, I am trying explain in the most neutral way I can not to do X, and that repeatedly downplaying the implications of doing X is a bad look.
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … The comparison fits perfectly insofar as that of any analogy fits. These issues can sometimes be confusing and take some adjustments which can lead to slip-ups. You know what is also often confusing and leads to slip-ups? Learning a new language.
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    • Husky Wing
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      Husky Wing
      Editing … I can promise that any negatively interpreted implications don't reflect my attitude towards trans people. I can even apologize if something hurful was said. However, it *is* an okay mistake to make, to accidentally deadname someone like that, and in the case of a celebrity I'm going to remain peripherally aware of, it's not a priority to correct either. We can discuss that if you disagree or believe it can harm others (and to be clear, I do understand that, when this isn't in the immediate past, publicly making that mistake can affect others).
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    • Husky Wing
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      Husky Wing
      Editing … (And well, the analogy still doesn't fit. A mistake with a new language isn't reflexive in the same way using someone's old name is. Though I suppose if you don't refer to people by reflex, it's a close comparison. Do you refer to people reflexively, and if so can't you understand where I'm coming from?)
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … Again, I prefaced my response with "I know it takes some getting used to," meaning YES, I do understand where you're coming from, a lot of us have been there, and I'm not reading malice into your mistake, I am merely pointing out that you should avoid it in the future. While it is good that you are more apologetic irl, all I can see is what you post. In your most recent post you do say that you understand "making that mistake can affect others," and that is the first indication that you see anything wrong with your behavior. What comes across in your previous posts is that it is wrong for your behavior to be questioned because of mitigating circumstances, even though I'm already well aware of such circumstances because it's the first thing I mentioned.
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … With regard to the analogy, it is a constructed scenario to illustrate the flaw in your thinking applied to a different context. Pointing out minor differences does not invalidate the analogy. If there were no differences it wouldn't be an analogy. It would just be "Eating an ice cream cone is like eating an ice cream cone." In this scenario a person inadvertently says something socially unacceptable due to the "mitigating circumstances" of struggling with a language. Yes, this is different from the "mitigating circumstances" of perceiving a famous actor one way and having to shift your perception of them. What is relevant is the response afterwards. If the linguistically challenged person says "Oh, sorry, I didn't know that word was racist, I don't know how I picked that up," everyone can move on. If their response is "C'mon now, I'm not a fluent speaker, give me a break! It's a tough language, I'm probably going to make that mistake again! It's not like Laurence Fishburne is here to hear me say it! Besides he's rich and famous, what does he care what a rando like me says?" that speaks much more poorly of them.
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … There are lots of things you can point out with this analogy. Do such interactions occur as routinely as a trans person being deadnamed? No, but that's not relevant. You can say that using a racial slur is less "reflexive" than the name or pronouns you've attached to a person who transitions. I can add that this person has unknowingly spent months around racists picking up verbal cues from them and not realizing their implications until they starting spending time with a different circle of people. You can nitpick every analogy this way. "You say that the electricity flows through this copper wire like water through a hose, but if that were true the lightbulb would turn off when I tie a knot in the wire! I poo on your analogy and refuse to learn anything!"
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    • Husky Wing
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      Husky Wing
      Editing … Sandy, I'm sorry, but I don't think you're being reasonable, and all I can see is that you want to fight. It's not something I want to engage with. I hope we're still friends and that any disagreements we have don't hang over us. Hopefully you're okay with us disagreeing on this, since you don't seem to believe I hold any hostility towards trans people. Please don't take this as an "I'm so mature, I'm gonna walk away," and please be okay with me even misinterpreting your intentions, because this is just a matter of preference in how I use my time online. I will say that if I did say anything hurtful, I'm sorry, and I really don't mean to hurt anyone.
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    • Sandvich
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      Sandvich
      Editing … I honestly want you to take what I'm saying to heart and apologize for descending to some gish galloping at the end. The bottom line is that something being understandable is not the same as it being excusable. If you agree that deadnaming is cruel and hurtful but your response to criticism over it is a series of defenses how it's really hard and not a big deal, it sends the message that you prioritize your own convenience over your treatment of others. Trans issues are not the first instance of us having to adjust our use of the English language. We've had to have the same conversations when it comes to issues of race, sexual orientation, disability and others, and while these adjustments don't always come easily that isn't an excuse to be lazy. 2020 is plenty stressful right now so no hard feelings if you want no further part of this conversation.
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